Extra Than Only a Canine with Si Wooler

There is a new episode of The Pawsitive Submit in Dialog about our particular relationship with canine with visitor Si Wooler.

By Zazie Todd, PhD

Watch episode 28 of The Pawsitive Submit in Dialog under or on Youtube, pay attention under or wherever you get your podcasts (Apple, Spotify), or scroll all the way down to learn a transcript of the highlights.

About this episode with Si Wooler

This web page incorporates affiliate hyperlinks which implies I’ll earn a fee on qualifying purchases for gratis to you. 

We discuss in regards to the huge adjustments that persons are keen to make for
their fearful canine, and why the canine’s relationship with their individual is
essential for all canine, however particularly the fearful ones. We speak about
what a terrific job Si does of serving to folks see issues from the canine’s
perspective, and we ask how he talks with shoppers in regards to the canine’s
umwelt, or how the canine perceives their world.

We ask about how Si
determined the place to suit Sophie’s story within the guide. And Kristi places Si on
the spot and asks how he offers with the outdated concept of dominance when
it comes up in dialog and what he thinks of poisonous masculinity in
canine coaching.

Extra Than Only a Canine: Understanding, Loving, and Dwelling with Canine, The Indispensable Information for All Canine Lovers
by Simon Wooler is out now within the UK and accessible wherever books are
bought, together with UK Bookshop. 

Extra Than Only a Canine will likely be revealed in North American on Could thirteenth and is out there for pre-order now.

The books we suggest on this episode are:

Additionally talked about on this episode:

The discuss by Dr. Lindsay Parker is the A&S Colloquium Kicking the Canine. 

The episode of The Social Canine Pod with Zazie Todd as visitor.

Zazie’s favorite bookstore, Black Bond Books. 

The opposite books that Si mentions are Sophie from Romania: A Yr of Love and Hope with a Rescue Canine by Rory Cellan-Jones, and Bark! The Science of Serving to Your Anxious, Fearful, or Reactive Canine by Zazie Todd. 

Si Wooler has been coaching canine for greater than ten years. He
studied with the Academy for Canine Trainers, probably the most rigorous canine
behaviour and coaching programmes on this planet and specialises in
coaching fearful and reactive canine. In 2023, he labored with creator and
broadcaster Rory Cellan-Jones and his spouse Professor Diane Coyle to assist
their Romanian rescue canine, Sophie, overcome her profound fears, bond
along with her folks and regularly uncover the world, a journey that was
adopted every day by tons of of hundreds of followers.

Si got here to canine
coaching after 20 years as a sound engineer so loud barking hardly
registers on his private decibel scale. His personal fearful, ‘unhomeable’
rescue canine, Thomson, was the motivator for searching for out efficient,
evidence-based coaching strategies and leaving his profession in sound and
stage to concentrate on working with troubled canine and the individuals who love
them. That is his first guide.

Si’s web site, Sociable Canine. 

Highlights of the dialog with Simon Wooler

Z: So, Si, inform us in regards to the guide.

S: Inform you in regards to the guide. Nicely, the guide was very a lot impressed initially by the expertise of Sophie from Romania and Rory and Diane’s willpower to assist her. And we had been approached by our publishers, Harper Collins. I needed to look on the again to recollect. I can by no means bear in mind their identify. I do not know what it’s. 

However Harper Collins approached me, having seen the story of Sophie on social media, and requested if I might like to put in writing a guide. And it is one thing that truly had by no means actually occurred to me, however I assumed it was very thrilling. And Nina was poking me within the ribs and saying, do it, do it, do it, do it, do it. 

So in the long run, Extra Than Only a Canine is mostly a fruits of not simply 10 years, properly, most likely virtually nearer to fifteen years of expertise within the subject, however reflections on my training about canine, how essential it’s to know their studying experiences and the way they be taught in order that we may also help them in a real means.

And that is busting some myths, it is telling tales. It is serving to folks to attach with their canine, significantly in the event that they’re dealing with habits issues. However basically, I type of hope it is an essential learn, however an pleasing and entertaining and at occasions humorous learn as a result of I feel all of us want that in our worlds. 

And people who find themselves coping with canine with vital emotional issues positively want to have the ability to take a look at their relationship in a lighter means typically and get some respite from it too.

Z: I feel it positively is. I imply, it is very pleasing and it’s humorous in elements too, which I feel could be very, very good.

S: Hopefully within the supposed elements, which is at all times useful.

Ok: So within the guide, you utilize numerous storytelling about your individual life and your shoppers, canine of their lives. And one of many issues that stood out to me at first was simply how a lot you modified your life for Thomson.

So I needed to know, simply type of like reflections on what are among the favourite tales that you’ve out of your shoppers about what they’ve executed for his or her canine? You recognize, these huge issues that we do for our canine.

S: Sure, I feel tales are massively essential. And the tales round Thomson had been supposed to indicate or illustrate that that is doable, that it isn’t insurmountable, the problem and the numerous problem that worry, reactivity, aggressive habits can current for folks.

My shoppers tales. It is at all times extraordinary to me simply what number of tales they’ve and the way a lot they consider their lives with their canine by way of tales, by way of their experiences collectively and simply how resilient they’re to it and the way they’ll nonetheless see the humorous aspect of issues that they take care of.

I imply, I only in the near past completed a two and a half week residential with a canine known as Troy and he is been six months within the UK and was so terrified that he hasn’t but truly set foot out of, out of the home. And but the tales that come out of people that have canine like which are outstanding. So for instance, Troy and I found this to my very own amusement. 

Troy have to be, he is a German shepherd canine, Rottweiler cross, with I believe a little bit of Jack Russell in there someplace as properly. However he would, at 2 o’clock within the morning, this shy, retiring, nervous canine would run down the hall and throw himself spleen bustingly onto you in your mattress after which do some spin after which run off once more.

And most of the tales that come out of lots of people’s lives with these canine are these little moments of pleasure that their canine exhibits. In order that little playful cheekiness or that the primary stroll is commonly one thing that individuals will inform their story about.

What tales can I. As a result of the guide has tales of unwell well being and managing that, it has tales about discovering the willpower to unravel the issue, even when meaning going by six completely different trainers. They usually can nonetheless be witty about these moments the place issues simply go sideways.

So yeah, I imply, I feel that life tends to be about tales and positively folks’s experiences with their canine as a result of they’re relations, there are certain to be tales and I feel there’s usually tales of making an attempt to incorporate their canine in issues with the household and so forth and so forth that I feel is simply so endearing and simply exhibits how essential they’re to us and the way essential they turn into in a extremely quick time frame.

Did that reply? I am not even certain if that answered the query, to be trustworthy, however you already know me, tangent man.

Z: It leads very properly into our subsequent query truly, which is as a result of your guide is absolutely in regards to the relationship between folks and their canine and we will inform that simply from the title, Greater than only a Canine, they don’t seem to be simply canine.

So why is that relationship particularly essential for fearful canine?

S: Oh, that is an excellent query, I feel, as a result of definitely what I’ve realized over time, working rather a lot with each fearful canine which are fearful and hideaway, and canine which are fearful and select aggressive habits as a method to repair that, to assist them deal with that.

One of many issues I’ve found and are available to know much more drastically is simply how essential connection is for them, how essential it’s for them to really feel not simply secure within the setting that they are in, however secure with the folks that they are with.

And people folks turn into what in human psychology they name safe bases. In order that your canine can really feel extra assured about exploring new environments as a result of they know that safe base is there to return again to and it type of stabilizes their world.

However I feel equally, I am certain numerous us know what it is wish to have relations or pals who’re affected by psychological well being points and simply how achingly painful that’s since you simply can not help however really feel a way of empathy for them.

And you already know, while you see canine, canine in apparent ache or worry, it is unattainable to not see them as somebody in want of assist, somebody desperately in want of help and sympathy and acknowledgement. And I feel that simply type of connects with folks. However the entire enterprise of constructing a relationship is step one to creating it potential. And that is what Extra Than Only a Canine is definitely about, is making that relationship in order that.

Or giving, virtually saying it. You are not doing nothing for those who’re simply concentrating on being with them, spending time with them, discovering out what they assume is enjoyable and benefiting from that and simply giving them house and openness and option to develop into what’s an entire, utter change of their lives.

Significantly if it is rescue canine, if they seem to be a rescue canine, it is a full topsy turvy, flip the world up on its head second for them. They usually’re normally canine that weren’t in nice emotional form to start with. So, you already know, my feeling about it’s that we have into a spot in trendy society the place our expectation is that if canine are upset or fearful about one thing, they will recover from it fairly rapidly. They need to recover from it fairly rapidly. And my query is, why?

Why ought to they recover from it fairly rapidly? I imply, ought to, ought to. There’s virtually a chapter on why ought to, should not, ought, or thrown out of the English dictionary as a result of it isn’t about what must be occurring or should not be occurring.

It is about what is occurring. And that is what we have now to take care of and care for. And there should not be an assumption. There you go. I did it. I did it. I did not. Should not. We mustn’t assume that canine will recuperate rapidly. And that is Ripley digging up the couch which you could most likely hear.

Z: Good day, Ripley.

S: Sure. So, you already know, that is my huge motivation. That is my huge drive. Not simply on this guide, however in every little thing I do now, which isn’t only for folks to acknowledge the connection and perceive that the canine are a part of the household, but in addition to provide themselves permission to type of decelerate and really feel every little thing that they do really feel.

As a result of dwelling with canine which are upset 247 is tough. It is actually, actually laborious. And too usually there’s criticism of individuals and there is an assumption in our society that if a canine is fearful or exhibit different habits which will point out that they are anxious, that one thing unhealthy should have occurred to them and it have to be the individuals who did it. 

And fairly often that signifies that folks do not go for assist. They do not search for assist. And what I wish to say is, we’re not judging you. We’re not judging you. In reality, if something, we’re supplying you with kudos for in search of assist for you and your canine.

And we have to dispel that delusion that every one canine that behave in that means, that behave fearfully, have been mistreated. They will have been, however fairly often not by the folks which are coming to ask you for assist.

In order that’s massively essential. Having empathy not only for canine, however for folks, too.

Ok: Our subsequent query is leaping somewhat bit into type of, I feel we’re going proper from like, the sweetness to type of the laborious stuff. However one factor that did come as much as me once I was, I am unable to bear in mind which a part of your guide I used to be , however there was type of not less than point out of behavioral euthanasia. 

And I used to be pondering, okay, behavioral euthanasia can nonetheless be somewhat little bit of a taboo subject, even amongst canine trainers who must be snug with these conversations, you already know, so I need your ideas on how does this probably not serve canine or their guardians, the truth that we maintain this as a taboo topic, and the way can we type of have these conversations in whereas recognizing that the aversive crowd tends to type of sling at us this accusation that we go proper to behavioral euthanasia every time there is a canine that we won’t deal with, even supposing that’s simply unsuitable, you already know, and the truth that proof truly exhibits that it is a very completely different story.

S: Wow, that is an excellent query.

Ok: Possibly briefly we will simply contact on that earlier than we go.

S: Yeah, it is a actually, actually good query. And it is an essential one, I feel, as a result of it is essential to have the ability to say to folks, I do not think about that it is my place to advise or suggest euthanasia. I’ve by no means had a scenario the place I have been required to do this. I think about there are. I think about some conditions are both simply so harmful or the canine is in a lot misery that that is going to be put up entrance and middle as an actual choice and will properly have already been proposed by any person within the combine, like Yvette, for instance.

My obligation is to say it’s an choice. It is an choice that is on the desk and for those who determine to take it, then you’re going to get my help, unquestioning non judgmental help in that call.

The truth that the suggestion that as non aversive trainers we go straight to habits euthanasia as an answer for a canine that we won’t handle is baloney. And I am going to put it on the market, it is baloney, folks.

I feel in that roughly dozen years of apply, I’ve had one consumer who’s determined that that was the best way that it needed to go as a result of they simply felt the canine, their canine was too harmful. Like she wasn’t predictable sufficient in the home and she or he wasn’t predictable sufficient in public.

They usually had been simply, it was, it was attending to the purpose the place they had been extremely careworn they usually had been fearful that it was impacting on their place in the neighborhood, in the best way that the group considered them and their lives had been deteriorating in consequence. They usually made that call and I supported them in it, each informally and formally. It must be there as an choice for excessive instances.

However I’ll push again once more on that accusation that you simply talked about, Kristi, as a result of if I am confronted with a canine whose habits I am unsure I perceive or I really feel like I am not making progress with it, my suggestion is not going to be put your canine down.

My resolution goes to be, firstly, let’s have a dialog about meds. So let’s speak about whether or not or not there is a pharmaceutical resolution that may assist us not less than. And the three of us know that remedy for canine, nervousness remedy for canine, is designed to make behaviour modification simpler to do more practical and more likely to progress higher.

And that is the dialog I’ll have with folks round meds. I’ll very pointedly say that I feel meds is a frontline choice, not a final resort, and we must always see what that does in an effort to assist us.

I additionally assume that if I do not perceive, it is essential to be trustworthy with your self and say, properly, I do not perceive that habits. And then you definately go and also you try to work out why that is occurring. So that you take a look at, you do the 2 issues that truly I do not go into a terrific deal within the guide, but it surely’s turn into more and more obvious.

And it struck me the opposite day, I used to be watching one thing on YouTube. There was a man speaking about type of communication strategies and issues like that. And truly one of many issues that got here up very strongly was that it isn’t about speaking, it is about listening.

So you have acquired some sources with these guys who’re confronted with these actually, actually tremendous tough canine. One is to pay attention and the opposite is to look at.

So hearken to the human, the human aspect of the connection and watch the canine aspect of the connection. And normally you begin to see, if you cannot account essentially for the habits, you begin to see someplace the place you could find an in.

And that observational stuff is absolutely, actually essential for me. My final consumer, you already know, that I discussed earlier, it was fairly apparent that he got here alive at evening. And so we shifted a lot of the work from daytime to nighttime. So it was 3, 4am within the morning that we had been doing stuff to try to assist him turn into extra assured. And that migrated into sunlight hours.

However that is, for me, these are the 2 most essential issues to strive. And there are many issues you are able to do earlier than anybody begins to speak about euthanasia. And it isn’t going to be me, is my rule. That is going to return from the human consumer. They are going to say, I am unsure we will deal with this, we will do that. 

After which the choices will likely be we will strive for a re dwelling. We are able to search for any person who’s skilled in dwelling with canine like this and are ready to take the danger with all the needed caveats and situations.

And if they are saying we’re pondering that the very best factor is perhaps to euthanize her or him, then my reply is, properly, I am unable to advise you to do this, however it’s an choice that you’ve. It is, you already know, and it is an comprehensible one. It isn’t one that you will get judgment for from me, and you will get full help from me. And for those who want me to talk to your vet, then I am going to do this, too.

That was a protracted reply to a brief query.

Z: Nicely, one of many stuff you touched on in there may be your interactions with the shoppers and your conversations with the shoppers. So to deliver it to a much less heavy subject, let’s discuss in regards to the concept of a canine’s umwelt. And the way do you clarify to folks how our understanding of the canine’s umwelt can truly assist to enhance their relationship with their canine?

So let’s use it with out the terminology. How do you want to speak to folks about how understanding what issues really feel like and are like for the canine, the canine’s experiences, how does that understanding assist to enhance their relationship with the canine?

Ok: I really feel like one of many strengths of your guide was that, that you simply actually introduced it all the way down to the canine’s POV. You recognize, we had been doing numerous life by the canine’s eyes.

And I feel that that is, that is a technique that we will actually, like, work with the people of the element, so. Yeah, yeah, but it surely’s not essentially simple to speak to our shoppers about that, so.

S: No, it isn’t. They usually’ve acquired numerous preconceived concepts, and people preconceived concepts have come from some good, you already know, they discovered good studying for. They discovered good folks on the Web. They’ve additionally discovered some actually atrocious ones they usually do not actually know easy methods to siphon them off, so they do not know what the filters are for good and unhealthy recommendation and good and unhealthy opinion, for those who like.

And I feel it is about, it is a dialog. I feel that you’ve, as soon as you have established a rapport with them and really, fairly often that’s because of your rapport with their canine. Even when it is a canine that’s stored 15ft away as a result of it desires to shred bits of you.

So the truth that you’re targeted on their canine and also you’re doing one thing to try to settle the scenario down and make the canine join with you, you already know, simpler with simply fearful canine moderately than canine which have aggressive responses, as a result of it is a problem to discover a place the place you’re in, the place it is all calming down, the place you have acquired sufficient distance between you to handle the thresholds, for those who like. 

However nonetheless, folks acknowledge your consideration to their canine and then you definately after which I. What I are likely to do is I am speaking to them about what their wants are and their challenges are and what their worries about it are. And I am becoming the answer that they are in search of into their life. 

Good day, Doglet. It is a doglet. 

Ok: It is Archer.

S: Who’s that?

Ok: Archer.

S: Archer. Hello, Arch.

So I am making an attempt to know what their fears and issues are too, as a result of we’re serving to two species right here. And if we’re solely involved about serving to the canine, then I’d say you are within the unsuitable enterprise. As a result of. And here is a contentious factor that can likely get some feedback. I do not assume we’re within the canine enterprise. We’re within the folks enterprise.

We’re about serving to folks assist their canine and dwell higher collectively, dwell extra harmoniously collectively, dwell happier collectively, and perceive what it’s that is happening with the canine in an effort to permit for change in that. So moderately than making an attempt to drive change, they’re giving canine alternatives and selections and company and probability to take care of the setting that they discover themselves in.

And for me, the human finish of that lead is so essential. It’s important to acknowledge the stress and the stress and the fear and the worry that’s occurring for these folks 24 7. You recognize, within the preliminary dialog, I feel it is a huge. It’s about listening and it is about figuring out the place the stress factors are, saying and saying to start with. Proper. How can we. How can we make that simpler for you? And arising with issues that aren’t about what I feel they need to want, however are about what they really do want and gearing the plan, the continuing plan to that.

It issues to me. You recognize, it actually issues to me as a result of these folks love their canine. They’re deeply distressed about what’s occurring. Generally they take it extremely personally. And I feel the very first thing that one of many first issues to say is, this is not private.

You’re truly essential to them and you are going to turn into extra essential to them. They’re simply scared.

Ok: Yeah. I feel worry is one thing that. And I do know Zazie has truly written in regards to the science on this, however folks are likely to miss worry of their. In canine and in their very own canine, even. So it is, I feel, probably the most essential messages that we will deal with dwelling for certain.

S: Yep, yep. I feel so, too. I feel it is about. I feel it is about not blaming folks, not judging them. It is about giving them house and time, and it is about successfully telling them they’re allowed to take time with their canine to assist resolve it.

Poor little guys. Hey, bless their hearts. Each final one in every of them simply tugs at my heartstrings each time I, you already know, I’m going in and you may really feel and you may hear the ache within the human voices about it and the dedication, absolutely the dedication to resolve it as a result of, you already know, on the finish of the day, folks do not pay us to go in and assist them if they do not wish to resolve that difficulty, if the canine aren’t so essential to them that they wish to maintain them.

You recognize, the Sophie story is especially poignant in that sense as a result of Rory’s expectation was for a canine that he’d have the ability to exit to stroll with as a result of he is acquired Parkinson’s illness. So it was fairly essential to train. And Sophie, as they thought, was going to be an actual catalyst to that.

And regardless of every little thing, regardless of hiding behind the couch for months and toileting on. On pet pads and refusing to eat and afterward barking at nearly everyone that set foot within the place, they had been decided that Sophie had turn into a member of the household. And you do not throw out members of your loved ones as a rule except you already know one thing actually hideous has occurred.

So I feel, on the danger of sounding like a damaged report, my focus is about household, is about relationships. And every little thing that I do in sensible phrases, be it coaching or be it emotional shift, it is about altering that relationship. It is about making that relationship stronger.

Z: And I’ll bounce in with a query right here since you talked about Sophie, one of many questions we needed to ask you, it is a writing query. So Sophie’s a extremely well-known canine that you simply labored with, and also you waited till about midway by the guide earlier than you actually began telling a few of her story in right here.

So what was your thought course of? How did you determine the place to introduce Sophie into the guide and the place she would slot in?

S: What an excellent query. We had a really deliberate construction for it. Nina, my accomplice, is a copywriter. She writes, and we talked rather a lot about collectively about what the construction of the guide was going to be. 

It was essential for me that it wasn’t a retelling of Sophie’s story, that it did not Begin with Sophie. It wasn’t. It did not at all times come again to Sophie. Not that I do not love her. I do. She’s completely lovable. I fall in love with all of them.

However it was essential to have the ability to say that Sophie is not. What is the phrase? That not one of the canine concerned within the guide. So not one of the tales and no canine that individuals come to us about, none of them are dysfunctional. This isn’t about abnormality. That is about regular.

The traditional strategy to fearful stimuli, for those who like, that these canine are behaving as they might in the event that they’re afraid. Now, the truth that they do not must be afraid is type of irrelevant. As a result of they’re afraid. They assume what they’re is harmful. And due to this fact we have now to respect that as being their way of thinking. 

And I feel Sophie was launched the place she was simply because that was the appropriate place to place that story. And she or he was going to be the fearful canine story, for those who like. Though, you already know, a lot of them are. However I could not ignore it as a result of Sophie. Not solely is Sophie’s story a terrific one, however Diane and Rory have turn into actually shut pals. And with out Sophie, no one would have requested me to put in writing a guide. 

So it was essential for it to not be about Sophie. Trigger Rory, aside from anything, Rory’s already written one [Sophie from Romania]. And it was massively trustworthy and insightful and beneficiant of spirit. And in order that would not have been the purpose. And it wasn’t the purpose. The purpose was to not write a easy methods to guide, however to put in writing a guide that was to some extent, it has some. Here is the way it works. It has various. Here is how habits works. Here is what is going on on on this scenario.

However it was extra about serving to folks to know that so that they may have the ability to make some progress with their very own canine or simply. Or simply make an excellent nearer reference to their canine. And a few folks, I hope that learn it, could have a wonderful reference to their canine and can simply get some understanding of what the science and the precept is behind habits.

Such as you, you have executed so properly in Bark!, Zazie. And I feel extra of us must be doing that. You recognize, we must be shouting it from the rooftops. We must be saying, that is what is going on on. That is how habits works. It isn’t one thing that you simply pluck out of the ether, but in addition that we acknowledge people who find themselves having a tough time as properly. And to say it is doable, that is doable.

Ok: So Zazie, do we have now time for yet one more query, do you assume, or ought to we transfer into the books?

Z: You probably have time, you ask yet one more query after which we’ll transfer on to the books and perhaps we’ll make it. Attempt to make this one a reasonably fast query.

Ok: Okay, I am going to make it a quick. 

S: It isn’t the query that is the issue, is it? It is the reply.

Ok: Okay, so I am going to offer you an opportunity, a selection. We have now a pleasant beautiful one about writing kinds after which we have now type of a tough hitter and you may decide. What do you, what are you within the temper for proper now on the finish of our dialog?

S: Oh, you are going to maintain going to maintain the laborious hitter severe as a secret. Onerous. Go for the laborious hit.

Ok: Okay, so pack management and dominance pondering is tied up with poisonous and hegemonic masculinity. So on this subject of ours, which is basically girl dominated, I used to be simply curious the way you construction your apply to deal with these matters immediately along with your shoppers. And the way do you type of take note the truth that you are working in a lady dominated subject as you type of delusion bust, if in any respect.

S: Wow, that is attention-grabbing. Nicely, how did you, how did you describe that? The, the, the masculinity bit? That was good. That was nice.

Ok: Poisonous and hegemonic masculinity, which aren’t my phrases.

S: Yeah, hegemonic, that is a terrific phrase.

Ok: There is a actually good. Do you bear in mind the identify of the physician who did that actually, actually nice webinar who type of pulled this, the threads of this argument?

Z: No, I’ve forgotten. I’ll discover it and put it within the present notes.

S: Yeah, that sounds completely fascinating. So reply the query as temporary as I can.

No, no, I do not, I do not give it some thought truly. Apparently, I typically give it some thought exterior of the session. However it’s not one thing that. As a result of here is the factor, the best way that I deal with it’s I do not, except it comes up, proper? So I do not deal with pack management, the pack management delusion, or the dominance delusion except it raises its head. And it is normally in a really harmless means that that occurs.

So they don’t seem to be, they don’t seem to be pushing it laborious at me, however they’re victims of, you already know, that indiscriminate degree quantity of various data that is accessible on the market.

So what I do is normally by then they’ve had some huge aha moments about how studying actually works. I’ve already executed an introduction to how animals be taught by affiliation and the way they be taught by penalties and executed some little, little examples and even demoed it on their canine if, if their canine is keen to return and spend a while with me. Doing it with meals. Proper.

So that they’ve already had some. Oh, wow, take a look at that. Look how rapidly, how fast that’s. And I’ve had a possibility to say that is how that is working, that is what is going on on right here.

After which I can say there isn’t any proof in habits science for the dominance assemble to be true with home canine. They usually purchase in. They purchase in fully. There’s not even a. I’ve by no means as soon as had a battle over that one. They’ve folded.

How I normally put it’s take that concept, put it in a kitchen drawer someplace, shut the drawer, lock it, take the cupboard out of the kitchen, put it within the automotive, drive to someplace the place you may throw it off the cliff. And throw it off the cliff as a result of we do not want it. It isn’t essential.

Ok: Speaking about tales, that is a really highly effective imagery.

Z: It’s good. Thanks, Si.

S: As for almost all of girls within the subject that. I do not comprehend it. I do not. I am such a liberal, you see, I do not. It does not, it does not sweat me in a means.

And I feel, properly, I imply, take a look at, take a look at the 2 of you. I imply, two mighty brains within the subject and. Yeah. And to be trustworthy, I do not know what to say in that regard. I am type of relaxed about. I do not really feel threatened by both of you.

Z: Darn it. We did not provide you with laborious sufficient questions.

Ok: I can get higher. Give me an opportunity.

Z: Nicely, thanks, Si. 

This transcript has been calmly edited for content material and magnificence.

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