Tradition Conflict and Past with Jean Donaldson

Watch or hearken to the recording of the panel at Bark! Fest, the e book pageant for animal lovers, with Jean Donaldson speaking about The Tradition Conflict.

By Zazie Todd PhD

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Bark! Fest with Jean Donaldson

Bark! Fest, the e book pageant for animal lovers, occurred in
September 2024 with 11 writer panels (and one methods class from the
superb Erica Beckwith of A Matter of Manners Canine Coaching). It was organized to have fun the launch of my new e book, Bark! The Science of Serving to Your Anxious, Fearful, or Reactive Canine, which is out now and accessible from all good bookstores.

That is the recording of the very first session, Tradition Conflict and Past with particular visitor Jean Donaldson.

You’ll be able to watch the recording on Youtube or under, and hearken to the recording wherever you get your podcasts (Apple) or under. Closed captions can be found on Youtube. You may as well scroll all the way down to learn a few of the highlights of the dialogue.

We talked about:

• why Jean wrote her e book The Tradition Conflict
• what the Transparency Problem is and why it is so essential for canine trainers to reply these questions
• her recommendation to somebody who’s fighting their canine’s behaviour
• what’s distinctive concerning the Academy for Canine Trainers
• a writing tip
• her favorite factor that is modified on the earth of canine coaching over time
• and he or she answered a lot of questions from the viewers

Get the books

All the Bark! Fest books can be found from good bookstores, together with from Bookshop (which helps impartial bookstores), UK Bookshop, and my Amazon retailer. 

Sources talked about

Transparency in canine coaching  

The Academy for Canine Trainers 

Discover a PPG skilled 

Karen Pryor Academy 

Victoria Stilwell Academy  

The Nice Programs Canine Coaching 101  

The final word canine coaching tip  (Companion Animal Psychology)

Emily Priestley Wild at Coronary heart Canine Coaching and her e book, City Sheepdog (see
additionally our current podcast with Emily, What it’s worthwhile to find out about herding canine)

Cooperative Paws by Veronica Sanchez  

If you happen to like this, you may also prefer to see the Bark! Fest recording of Canines, trauma, and each ends of the leash with Patricia McConnell PhD. 

Many because of everybody who got here to Bark! Fest and made it such an exquisite occasion, and particular because of Jean Donaldson for this stunning and essential dialogue.

Highlights of the dialog with Jean Donaldson

Z: So can we begin by going again to while you have been writing The Tradition Conflict? As a result of this can be a e book that so many individuals have advised me that this e book modified their method to canine coaching. And plenty of trainers who used aversives have advised me that that is the e book that made them change to utilizing reward based mostly strategies. However the world was very totally different while you have been scripting this e book.

So can you are taking us again to that second and say what it was like? What was the backdrop and why did you write this e book?

J: We’ve to return to 1992. There was a man, a outstanding coach I knew from the obedience trial circuit. He was quoted in {a magazine} and that is phrase for phrase, in case you use meals to coach, the canine is doing it for the meals and never for you.

Now I had been taking part in sports activities with my canine. I would been educating lessons, doing circumstances for a few years by that time. And it had turn out to be obvious to me that canine did not simply do stuff like a two minute heeling routine simply to please us. So I felt there was a fiction happening. And I knew this man and I knew how he skilled. It was with a choke collar, and he was fairly relentless, and his canine have been fairly joyless.

I need to say that he believed his canine have been cranking out obedience patterns for him. It actually caught in my craw that meals would someway corrupt the canine’s noble impulse to do these methods for this man’s pleasure. And that this kind of invented platonic canine who wasn’t simply bonded to individuals and did not simply love us, however who may very well be solely motivated by our happiness, was actually being principally tortured by ache and strangulation gadgets to keep up this phantasm.

It nearly made me bodily sick. So quick ahead a couple of years and I wrote that e book as an try to tug the curtain again.

Ok: So, Jean, at first of Tradition Conflict, which was… I simply. I do know this is not a part of our script, however I simply needed to say I used to be one of many individuals who, I felt like my thoughts was actually cranked open once I learn this e book. Not solely was it simply, like, such good info, and it made a lot sense to me as somebody who, you understand, I used to be a social scientist.

And so I appreciated the truth that it made sense as an alternative of it simply being, you understand, I had in all probability learn like 50 canine books by that time, and. And I used to be simply consistently judging myself, like, why cannot I make my canine do what they are saying I ought to be capable of do in these books, proper? I used to be, like, confused and sort of, like, down on myself. After which I learn this e book and I used to be similar to, oh, it was sort of a, this huge aid.

It is sensible. It offers us a path ahead, you understand, so it was a very essential e book for me too. 

So that you begin this e book, The Tradition Conflict, by speaking about this Disneyfication of canine. And do you suppose that is nonetheless a difficulty right this moment?

J: I might say a lot much less now. There are undoubtedly whiffs of it within the power coaching crowd once they pour scorn on meals. So they may use phrases like dependence on the meals and so forth. All habits is dependent upon outcomes. And the stuff we wish canine to do is commonly, as we frequently say in utilized habits, costly habits. There’s all the time motivation. The one distinction is how upfront we’re about it.

Z: Yep, certain. Okay. And so some time in the past, the Academy created the Transparency Problem, which was shared far and wide, and it is calling on canine trainers to be extra clear about their strategies. So, as you simply mentioned, it is dependent upon altering habits. Is determined by one thing. So are you able to inform us about these questions that you just arrange within the Transparency Problem and why they’re so essential?

J: The concept behind them is shopper safety. So the three questions are these:

• What is going to occur to my canine when she will get it proper? 
• What is going to occur to her when she will get it improper?
• Are there any much less invasive options to what you plan? 

So that is our questions that the general public ought to pose to canine trainers. Principally, it is about knowledgeable consent. In newer years, as coaching with out aversives has caught on, those that are depending on aversives are resorting to murkier and murkier language of their advertising supplies to hide what they’re really doing. So you may see weaselly phrases like pure or management or power and so forth. 

The questions are designed to get concrete about how the coach is planning to inspire your canine. What occasions within the bodily world are going to occur when the canine will get it improper, most particularly? And a few coach says, effectively, there’s simply going to be management.

[Feline interlude]

Ok: Lack of transparency is an actual difficulty for unusual canine guardians. And I do know that was a part of the rationale why you got here up with the three query problem. So in addition to asking these three questions, what do you suppose canine guardians ought to do to guard themselves from aversive strangers? As a result of they’re, such as you mentioned, I feel they’ve painted themselves right into a nook. They’re beginning to use different language. You recognize, so, so what can somebody do with out getting a Ph.D. basically in, in how the canine skilled world is working?

J: Yeah. I might say do not be cowed or bullied by these individuals. If they are saying to you that your canine, quote unquote, must be corrected or that electrical shock does not really harm, or that it is only a faucet on the shoulder, run away. There are higher options. 

In case your canine comes again from a board and prepare or one thing worse than he was or now he’s afraid on high of being worse, report that coach. Report them to no matter group they belong to. Write a evaluation. Inform others on social media it isn’t okay, it is malpractice, it isn’t your fault, it is the coach. And if it is actually egregious, I might even say name a lawyer.

Z: Yeah, I feel that is good recommendation. And many individuals name in a canine coach exactly as a result of they’re fighting their canine’s habits. And a few habits points could be very tough for unusual individuals to take care of. So other than discovering an excellent coach, which as we all know is difficult due to that murky language, what different recommendation do you could have for somebody who’s fighting their canine’s habits?

J: Know that our know-how now’s higher than it ever has been and so they need to attempt to discover a licensed non aversive habits practitioner. There is a referral checklist on the Academy web site. There is a referral checklist on the Pet Skilled Guild web site and in addition on the websites of non aversive colleges, issues like Karen Pryor Academy, Victoria Stilwell Academy. The coach’s web site ought to specify no aversives will likely be used. So phrases like power free or no ache, no worry, and so forth. And ask these three questions and guarantee that the solutions that you just get are clear and concrete and comprehensible.

Ok: One factor we frequently hear at present is that there is this improve in fearful and anxious canine. Now this I do not, so far as I do know, there hasn’t been an precise examine on this, so it is laborious to quantify. However what’s your impression about numbers of fearful canine? You recognize, kind of associated to the previous?

J: I do suppose I’ve seen what you are describing and I do not know, such as you, there’s not been analysis to my data. My guess is that it is partly we’re doing a greater job of catching and diagnosing anxiousness issues and getting them applicable therapy. VBs are extra accessible. There are extra of them than ever earlier than. There may additionally be possibly a little bit of a pendulum swing and a few over analysis happening. However once more, I really do not know.

Z: It is laborious to know, is not it? And that is one thing that I hear very often. However as a result of there is not a particular piece of analysis that like compares the previous to now, there isn’t any approach to inform for certain. Yeah. Thanks. It is good to get your impressions on that. 

And now I need to ask you concerning the Academy for Canine Trainers as a result of I am very, very fortunate to be a graduate of the Academy for Canine Trainers. Kristi is simply too, and Kristi is now a workers member there as effectively. I couldn’t have picked a greater faculty to go to. I am so very, very glad that I went to the Academy and I realized a lot from being there.

However we’ve got an enormous lot of your followers right here. So I am hoping that you may simply say one thing concerning the academy and about what’s distinctive concerning the Academy is canine coaching curriculum.

J: I might say it is a deeper dive into the whys about animal habits in addition to the right way to work extra complicated circumstances. We additionally supervise the follow of our graduates. I coach my grads on circumstances day by day. So I suppose I might say it is for potential trainers who’re actually inquisitive about how habits works and who’re excited by taking up more difficult work with canine guardians.

Z: Yeah, thanks. I might say that.

Ok: Yeah. And I feel there is a power within the counseling modules too. You recognize, I am working with people. I imply, we work with people virtually solely. I do not know any canine trainers who do not work with individuals. And one of many issues that studying all these books for Bark! Fest, Zazie, that is actually been hammered dwelling to me once I’m studying books by people who find themselves in our occupation, our skilled colleagues, is there’s much more consideration to individuals.

I imply, there’s some, I feel, different nice issues and I hope Jean will discuss this a bit extra. Like there actually is much more kind of bandwidth given to the truth that canine are canine they usually have wants and we should always enable them to satisfy their very own wants and be canine. But additionally there’s this, like, persons are essential they usually’re not evil and we will love working with individuals as canine trainers. So I feel that is a very cool a part of the Academy too.

Z: And if I can add an element too, I might say additionally simply the neighborhood and the neighborhood that you’ve with different trainers and the possibility to go and get suggestions on one thing in case you want it, or simply to, you understand, let off steam about one thing if it’s worthwhile to.

And simply the friendship amongst the individuals, I feel is among the greatest issues that you just’re nonetheless a part of this neighborhood after you’ve got graduated. You are not despatched off free into the world. You are still a part of it. Which I feel, you understand, for me is unbelievable. So thanks, Jean.

J: Thanks.

Ok: So once I was these questions yesterday and simply desirous about what I actually needed to know, I simply, it occurred to me that issues have modified. You all the time say that issues have modified because you wrote this e book.

This e book, I feel, is mired in plenty of anger and you may really feel it and it feels so righteous and good. You recognize, in studying it. 

J: I need to say I’ve apologized for the tone on many events.

Ok: I imply, I’m right here for it. However I used to be questioning what out of all the pieces that is modified for the reason that time that you just have been kind of impressed to jot down this e book, what is the favourite factor of yours that is modified?

J: I’ve to say it is the military of practitioners on the market doing the job competently with out aversives thriving of their careers. It was not all the time so. It’s nonetheless a warfare zone, philosophically for certain. There are these remaining sort of pockets of people that depend upon shock and so forth. They are going to go down combating, however down they’re going. That is 2024. It is not 1992 or in 96 once I wrote the e book. It is not then anymore.

Z: Yeah, and I feel that applies to the tone too, as a result of it was wanted, completely wanted. And issues have modified so much since then. And as you say, the shock trainers are going to go down combating, however they’re undoubtedly persons are going to should cease utilizing shock as a result of we all know a lot extra concerning the dangers and a lot extra about the advantages as effectively of reward based mostly coaching.

So I’m going to ask you a query which isn’t on our checklist, however I need to find out about your, your favourite factor. As a result of while you’re coaching with rewards, the canine is absolutely glad about doing it. So what’s your favourite factor about utilizing constructive reinforcement to coach a canine?

J: How the canine appears to be like. You recognize, simply the best way they give the impression of being when it is similar to this. I imply, I can simply do stuff and, and get, that is enjoyable. That is like one of the best factor ever.

It is simply how canine look while you prepare with rewards versus how they give the impression of being when you do not.

Z: Yeah. And I feel that is so essential as a result of typically when persons are coaching with shock, they suppose the canine is being good and they aren’t in a position to learn the canine’s physique language that exhibits that they aren’t glad in any respect in that glad expectant look on a canine’s face. There was even a chunk of analysis that regarded on the look on the canine’s face once they’re collaborating in constructive reinforcement coaching. And it is simply stunning, I feel. 

J: Yeah. 

Z: So I need to ask you a query about one in all your different books as a result of we’re specializing in The Tradition Conflict right this moment. However along with The Tradition Conflict, you’ve got written fairly a couple of different books that every one of them are wonderful. We have Combat and Mine and we have Canines are from Neptune and we have additionally received Prepare Your Canine Like a Professional, which I discussed within the introduction. So I need to ask you particularly about that as a result of that is aimed toward unusual canine trainers. Why did you resolve to jot down that specific e book and who do you suppose will profit most from it?

J: It is for guardians and it is for guardians who need to do it your self. And for these individuals, there was already plenty of good sort of first ideas info on the market, however I did not suppose that there was something that was tremendous duper granular and regular step-by-step.

And in order that. And likewise that course that you just talked about from the nice programs, Canine Coaching 101, they’re designed to fill that hole of precisely what to do, put this into slot A and slot B, step-by-step, the right way to prepare in a contemporary and proof based mostly trend.

Z: Thanks. And I’ve a query about your writing course of as effectively. However I particularly need to ask you about your writing course of for Tradition Conflict since you’ve written all of those books, and Oh Behave is one other one as effectively. However while you have been writing Tradition Conflict, if we take into consideration the tone of the e book, did all of it come out very simply or did it’s important to sit and plan it rather a lot? I do know it was a very long time in the past, however what do you keep in mind concerning the course of of really writing it?

J: I do not forget that I used to be very offended, that I used to be actually very bored with kind of the continuing narrative about canine desirous to please us being promulgated by individuals who have been, for my part, harming canine. Egregiously harming canine. And I could not, I could not stand it anymore. And so I sort of vomited it out in a single summer time. My course of was not excellent or skilled. It simply sort of out it got here.

Now, over time, I, you understand, there’s been a few rewrites to attempt to, you understand, hold it updated as a result of my philosophy did change slightly bit, and in addition to attempt to modulate that tone slightly bit, as a result of I do know that it may be fairly often off placing.

Z: I do not know that it is off placing. I would not say that. However I feel it is dependent upon who some individuals. And I am certain it felt prefer it was wanted on the time.

And there is a writing query that we frequently ask as a result of we interface with plenty of totally different writers, Kristi and I. We’ve a writing group, and we additionally discuss to plenty of totally different authors, and we all the time ask them for a writing tip. 

J: I am unable to keep in mind, a well-known writer, possibly it was Hemingway. Someone mentioned writing is rewriting.

So do not take what I simply described once I wrote The Tradition Conflict. Do not try this, you understand, for certain. Get out a draft. So the primary draft goes to be garbage, however then return and revise, revise, present it to any person, you understand, after which revise it some extra after which learn it after which repair it after which be ready to do a number of a number of drafts to get the place you need to go.

Ok: I did need to, simply because it occurred to me it is like a literary pageant. That is basically a literary pageant. And I feel speaking about writing is so essential as a result of writing is a very essential approach that canine trainers work together with potential audiences. And I used to be questioning, like, are you simply, like, a talented phrase crafter or did you could have lessons on writing or how? Since you’re an incredible writer. You are a really readable writer.

J: Thanks. Yeah, effectively, I recognize that very a lot, however I, I do not. I do not take into account myself in that echelon. I imply, there are individuals in that echelon. I’m sort of, I am a compulsive rewriter. So I’ve, over time, turn out to be very a lot about honing issues down and getting issues tighter. So I do advise individuals to spend a great deal of their power getting in there and really ruthlessly modifying for size, modifying for tightness, modifying for readability, getting suggestions after which modifying some extra.

Ok: And did you could have lessons on, like, did you are taking inventive writing or something like that? 

J: No, no, I did not. I, you understand, I may need. I imply, if I stay lengthy sufficient and retire, I would do one thing like that. I feel these are in all probability nice enjoyable. I didn’t. 

I feel one factor which may have helped is I learn so much and I feel studying helps so much. Simply kind of passively with the appropriate, you understand, capability to jot down, possibly.

Z: Yeah, yeah. And I feel additionally it helps with understanding, like once we’re speaking about speaking with unusual individuals about canine coaching. I feel having all that, having finished all of that studying lets you clarify issues higher.

And I completely will put you in that echelon of writers, by the best way. I feel you are an exquisite author. In order that’s why we’re so thrilled to have you ever, to have you ever right here.

And I needed to ask. You mentioned one in all your favourite issues that has modified. And we talked about additionally how there are extra individuals utilizing constructive reinforcement. And also you mentioned there are such a lot of individuals doing this. And clearly The Tradition Conflict as a e book has been a type of issues that is been instrumental in inflicting change. And I check with all of the individuals who inform me that it is modified how they method coaching canine.

However we’re a part of a wider tradition as effectively. So what different issues do you suppose have helped to alter the tradition in direction of extra individuals utilizing reward based mostly coaching strategies?

J: That is an incredible query. I do suppose issues just like the MeToo motion, issues like social media, which is, in fact there are large issues with social media, however the capability for individuals to kind of work together and get their very own concepts on the market.

And it simply, I imply, society is totally different now. There’s much less tolerance of violence, there’s much less tolerance of oppression of teams. There’s additionally, I feel, much less of a premium, what I might name speciesism, that we…

There’s better respect, I feel, than ever earlier than for being, for not being human. And I feel all that’s serving to the trigger.

Z: Yeah, I feel undoubtedly that may be a change that. Do you suppose it is also to do with individuals being extra prone to see canine as a part of their household?

J: Oh, actually, yeah. And I feel typically that was paid lip service beforehand, nevertheless it was so ingrained within the tradition that what you probably did to your member of the family was, you understand, scare the crap out of them or you understand, or put a strangulation gadget round their neck.

Now I feel we’re. We’re strolling the stroll slightly bit extra with the member of the family factor.

Z: Yeah, yeah. And we have seen modifications in how individuals deal with kids, too. So do you suppose to some extent that sort of rubs off on how individuals work together with canine as effectively?

J: I feel that is an incredible level. Sure. I feel it was, I imply, you understand, earlier generations the place kids, there was a better tolerance for corporal punishment, better tolerance for scaring the hell out of kids.

I feel that’s not the case, and I do not suppose it is any shameful. I do know there’s nonetheless pockets of people that pour scorn on the concept of, you understand, individuals having fur infants and so forth and, you understand, considering of canine as their children. However I feel that is a wonderful improvement. I feel that is completely legitimate.

This partial transcript has been calmly edited for content material and magnificence.

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